III: Two Churches Only?

(Thoughts about the Doctrine of Two Ways as observed through the lens of Scripture)

10 And [the angel] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:10, bea)¹

These words were written in the Americas in the mid- to late-500s B.C. about the time of the prophesied destruction of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem.² These words narrow our focus to a single dichotomy similar perhaps to Christ’s counsel about the narrow way and the broad way³ which, in essence, can be viewed as a single road, going narrowly up or broadly down, depending on the direction one is sincerely facing (which may fluctuate moment to moment); such a single road being the Doctrine of Two Ways.⁴

From the Pearl of Great Price, we see the beginning⁵ of these two churches (belief systems) in the days of Adam and Eve. We learn that when they sought direction for their lives from their now invisible, creator God, they were commanded to:

▪ worship the Lord their God;
▪ sacrifice the firstlings of their flocks as an offering to the Lord in similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father⁶;
▪ do all that thou doest in the name of the Son;
▪ repent;
▪ call upon God in the name of the Son forever more.⁷

They were given the assurance that redemption from their fallen state was possible for “all mankind, even as many as will.” And some time thereafter, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost were given ⁸ completing the Gospel fundamentals for our first parents — being the Doctrine of Christ⁹: faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, obedience, prayer, endurance to the end.

However, between the two events above:

12 ... Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.
13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:12-13)¹⁰

Secrets, secret combinations, and conspiracies “seeking for power”¹¹ and to “murder and get gain”¹² soon followed. From the continual lamentations of God and His prophets,¹³ we know that the church of the devil persisted as a recognizable pattern and system in history as Satan obsessed over the worship, honors, and powers he felt and still feels entitled to and relentlessly pursues.¹⁴

The angel’s words “save two churches only” emphasize that despite the various stories, doctrines, myths, and multiplicities of gods throughout the world ages, many, if not most, will be (in our modern vernacular) “avatars” for the rebellious one — the same aspiring usurper who had so often seduced into corruption, idolatry, and rebellion, time after time, the people of and prior to Noah’s days and Abraham’s days, plus the tribes of Israel and Judah.

So what about us in this day? Are we amongst the seduced, the blind, the deceived, the corrupted? Is Paul right? Is Jesus right? Is Joseph Smith right?

Paul; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(New Testament | Romans 3:10-12)

Jesus: 16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(New Testament | Matthew 19:16–17; Mark 10:17–18; Luke 18:18–19)

Joseph: 5 Therefore, what I say unto one I say unto all: Watch, for the adversary spreadeth his dominions, and darkness reigneth;
6 And the anger of God kindleth against the inhabitants of the earth; and none doeth good, for all have gone out of the way.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 82:5-6)

Why would God (and His servants) make such numerous accusations of our iniquity?¹⁵

Could it be to:

▪ shock us to awareness of how immersed we are in the darkness of accumulated philosophies, corruptions, idolatries, traditions, and lies¹⁶?
▪ awaken us to the intransigence of approaching Justice and Judgment¹⁷ when / if God’s Mercy has not been made efficacious for our individual lives by thorough repentance?

For the most part, we seem to lack awareness of how deep and broad sincere repentance must extend — how even “minor” offenses against truth, love, and justice must be acknowledged and cleared. God is not trying to depress us or discourage us in the midst of our weak, repetitious, addictions and blindness. He is trying to:

▪ save us from ourselves — from our fallen propensities and uncleanness;
▪ awaken us to our God-ordained missions, purposes, and potential (“to fulfill the measure of our creation”¹⁸) through sought-after personal inspiration / revelation given to us by His Spirit and in His timing;
▪ prove whether we can be trusted with increasing knowledge and power.¹⁹

Yes, we are His children, but do we think we can become heirs²⁰ of power and glory while in a prodigal, egocentric state? Have we been captured by philosophies that claim we are as Gods because our divine inner-nature has present capacity not only to know good and evil, but to re-define what is good and evil for ourselves?

Do we see the twist? Yes, God affirmed:

..., Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22; Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:28)

but “to know” does not mean to go beyond knowing “to deciding / re-defining” what is good and evil as in the Crowley-ian “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”²¹

How many have been captured by this recycling “New [Ancient] Age” Law that underlies in varying emphasis and expression many self-help, self-advancement philosophies? How many of the following  partake in the déjà vus of distract, divert, deceive? Where is the Light and where is the dark in each of these and others?

• Gnosticism?
• nature worship; Naturalism?
• Eastern and other mysticisms?²²
• degrees in secret societies like the Masons?
• theosophy?²³
• magic & the occult?
• transpersonal psychology?
• sovereigntist movement?²⁴
• psychedelic / hallucinogenic drug culture?²⁵
• Esalen Institute / Human-Potential Movement (HPM)?²⁶
• est (Erhard Seminars Training)?²⁷
• Neuro-Linguistic Programing (NLP)?²⁸
• The Avatar Course?²⁹
• Energy therapies?³⁰
• LGATs (Large Group Awareness Training)³¹ & Mind Dynamics?
• Galactic Federation of Light, et al.?³²
• plus other endless re-inventions and re-brandings? 

OR what of the “prophetic” deterministic chains of astrology, fortune-telling, psychic-readings?

So many of us labour and are heavy laden with trying to discover the secrets (purposes, direction, meaning) of our individual lives. Undoubtedly, there are many valuable books and resources, but do we ever ask: Does this require a faith-transfer away from the Lamb of God’s Will and Word?

So, let us decide: Are we in a game of no rules or hidden rules or gnosis encased in the collective unconscious or altered consciousness? OR is mortality a probation³³ with guidelines written in God’s Word? Do we ever ask: What is my touch-stone? my lens? Where am I looking for guidance? Am I too impatient, too afraid, to wait on the Will and Word of God?

5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.
6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.
(Old Testament | Psalms 62:5 - 8)

For those without conscience, Christ’s invitation to rest in Him has no meaning, but for those who once suffered oppressive, unbearable burdens of obsession, addiction, confusion, they can bear witness of the truth of this promise to those still burdened:

29 Then spake Jesus, saying, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(JST New Testament | Matthew 11:29-30)

Here is a classic example of seeking in all the wrong places:

Jewish Couple Miraculously Saved by Jesus | Yael & Jeff's Testimony
HIGHWAY 53 - by Jeff Morgan | Feb 12, 2026 | Time 30:34 min.) at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2OgFmi77F8

Now, lastly: Where is the Church of the Lamb of God to be found? Considering the déjà vus of history, and the lamentations of God about His people, perhaps His church³⁴ is in pieces and stages of compliance with His Will and Word and will be fully healed, unified, and re-named at His Second Coming.

In the meantime, let's get figured out which church our thoughts, speech, and actions sustain.

-------------------------------------------/
1. Fuller Context: (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:9 - 17)
    9 And it came to pass that he [the angel] said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
    10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
    11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
    12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
    13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
    14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
    15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
    16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
    17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
2. Solomon’s Temple: circa 587 B.C.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Temple
3. (New Testament | Matthew 7:13 - 14)
    13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
4. Doctrine of Two Ways
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2014/11/up-or-down.html
5. That is, the beginning in terms of earth chronology for according to LDS belief, the pre-mortal spirits made choice between Gods plan of agency and Lucifer’s plan of “redeem[ing] all mankind” which might be the pre-mortal beginning of the two churches.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1 - 4)
    1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
    2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
    3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
    4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
6. Directive to end the Shedding of Blood after Christ’s resurrection
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 9:17 - 22)
    17 And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled.
    18 I am the light and the life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
    19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
    20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
    21 Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin.
    22 Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.
7. Adam & Eve
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:4 - 9)
    4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
    5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
    6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
    7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
    8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.
    9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:58 - 59)
    58 And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    59 And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance, and the Gospel preached, and a decree sent forth, that it should be in the world, until the end thereof; and thus it was. Amen.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:1)
    1 AND Adam hearkened unto the voice of God, and called upon his sons to repent.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:22 - 23)
    22 And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.
    23 And they were preachers of righteousness, and spake and prophesied, and called upon all men, everywhere, to repent; and faith was taught unto the children of men.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:27 - 28)
    27 And he heard a voice from heaven, saying: Enoch, my son, prophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am angry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed hard, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes cannot see afar off;
    28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have denied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:50 - 52)
    50 But God hath made known unto our fathers that all men must repent.
    51 And he called upon our father Adam by his own voice, saying: I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh.
    52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:55 - 60)
    55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
    56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.
    57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.
    58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:
    59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
    60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:64 - 68)
    64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
    65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
    66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
    67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
    68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 8:23 - 24)
    23 And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying: Hearken, and give heed unto my words;
    24 Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not.
8. Baptism and the Holy Ghost
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:64 – 66)
    64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.
    65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.
    66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
9. Doctrine of Christ: See Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:1 - 21)
    Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 32:1 – 9)
10. Satan & Cain
More context: (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:12 - 15)
    12 ... Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.
    13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.
    14 And the Lord God called upon men by the Holy Ghost everywhere and commanded them that they should repent;
    15 And as many as believed in the Son, and repented of their sins, should be saved; and as many as believed not and repented not, should be damned; and the words went forth out of the mouth of God in a firm decree; wherefore they must be fulfilled.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 2:2)
    2. … and thus did Satan get possession of the hearts of the people again, insomuch that he did blind their eyes and lead them away to believe that the doctrine of Christ was a foolish and a vain thing.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:29 - 31)
    29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.
    30 And Satan sware unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret.
    31 And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:51)
    51 For, from the days of Cain, there was a secret combination, and their works were in the dark, and they knew every man his brother.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:55)
    55 And thus the works of darkness began to prevail among all the sons of men.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:15)
    15 And the children of men were numerous upon all the face of the land. And in those days Satan had great dominion among men, and raged in their hearts; and from thenceforth came wars and bloodshed; and a man's hand was against his own brother, in administering death, because of secret works, seeking for power.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:49)
    49 Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 7:24 - 26)
    24 And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man; and behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.
    25 And he saw angels descending out of heaven; and he heard a loud voice saying: Wo, wo be unto the inhabitants of the earth.
    26 And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 8:22)
    22 And God saw that the wickedness of men had become great in the earth; and every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually.
(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 1:5 - 7)
    5 My fathers having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;
    6 For their hearts were set to do evil, and were wholly turned to the god of Elkenah, and the god of Libnah, and the god of Mahmackrah, and the god of Korash, and the god of Pharaoh, king of Egypt;
    7 Therefore they turned their hearts to the sacrifice of the heathen in offering up their children unto these dumb idols, and hearkened not unto my voice, but endeavored to take away my life by the hand of the priest of Elkenah. The priest of Elkenah was also the priest of Pharaoh.
(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 1:9)
    9 And it came to pass that the priest made an offering unto the god of Pharaoh, and also unto the god of Shagreel, even after the manner of the Egyptians. Now the god of Shagreel was the sun.
11. (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:15)
      15 And the children of men were numerous upon all the face of the land. And in those days Satan had great dominion among men, and raged in their hearts; and from thenceforth came wars and bloodshed; and a man's hand was against his own brother, in administering death, because of secret works, seeking for power.
12. (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 5:31)
      31 And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness.
13. God’s lamentation
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2014/01/gods-lament.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2024/03/isaiahs-lamentations.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2024/03/where-are-lamentations.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2020/06/deja-vu-from-circa-bc-62.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2017/11/seest-thou-what-they-do.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2016/02/where-is-anguish.html
14. “Worship me”
(JST New Testament | Matthew 3:8 - 9)
       8 And again, Jesus was in the Spirit, and it taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them.
       9 And the devil came unto him again, and said, All these things will I give unto thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
(JST New Testament | Luke 4:8 - 9)
       5 And the Spirit taketh him up into an a high mountain, shewed unto him and he beheld all the kingdoms of the world, in a moment of time.
       6 And the devil came unto him, and said unto him, All this power will I give unto thee, and the glory of them; for they are delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will, I give them.
       7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:12)
       12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:19 - 22)
       19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.
       20 And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.
       21 And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan.
       22 And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.
15. More accusations:
(Old Testament | Psalms 14:2 – 4; 53:2 - 4)
       2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
       3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
       4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah 4:22)
       22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
(Old Testament | Micah 7:2 - 4)
       2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
       3 ¶ That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.
       4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
(Book of Mormon | Ether 4:11 - 12)
       11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.
       12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni 10:24 - 25)
       24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.
       25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 33:4)
       4 And my vineyard has become corrupted every whit; and there is none which doeth good save it be a few; and they err in many instances because of priestcrafts, all having corrupt minds.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 35:12 - 13)
       12 And there are none that doeth good except those who are ready to receive the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth unto this generation.
       13 Wherefore, I call upon the weak things of the world, those who are unlearned and despised, to thrash the nations by the power of my Spirit;
See also: https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2025/09/intrinsic.html
16. Father of Lies
(New Testament | John 8:44)
       44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:17 - 18)
       17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
       18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:8 - 9)
       8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
       9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
(Book of Mormon | Ether 8:25)
       25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 123:7)
       7 It is an imperative duty that we owe to God, to angels, with whom we shall be brought to stand, and also to ourselves, to our wives and children, who have been made to bow down with grief, sorrow, and care, under the most damning hand of murder, tyranny, and oppression, supported and urged on and upheld by the influence of that spirit which hath so strongly riveted the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children, and filled the world with confusion, and has been growing stronger and stronger, and is now the very mainspring of all corruption, and the whole earth groans under the weight of its iniquity.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:3 - 4)
       3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
       4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2016/01/season-of-lies.html
17. Justice & Judgment (bold emphasis aded)
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/01/whither-justice-and-judgment.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-lamb-and-lion.html
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:31 - 33)
       31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
       32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
       33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 45:16)
       16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 10:20 - 21)
       20 Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.
       21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment–seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:37)
       37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 40:26)
       26 But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 27:17 - 20)
       17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
       18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
       19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
       20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:57)
       57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence;
(Book of Mormon | Enos 1:22 - 23)
       22 And there were exceedingly many prophets among us. And the people were a stiffnecked people, hard to understand.
       23 And there was nothing save it was exceeding harshness, preaching and prophesying of wars, and contentions, and destructions, and continually reminding them of death, and the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord. I say there was nothing short of these things, and exceedingly great plainness of speech, would keep them from going down speedily to destruction. And after this manner do I write concerning them.
(Book of Mormon | Helaman 12:3 - 5)
      3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.
       4 O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!
       5 Yea, how quick to be lifted up in pride; yea, how quick to boast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to walk in wisdom's paths!
18. Measure of our creation (even as the earth):
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:14 - 21)
       14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.
       15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
       16 And the resurrection from the dead
is the redemption of the soul.
       17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
       18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
       19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
       20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
       21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
19. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2019/07/is-it-not-blatantly-obvious.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2019/06/the-spirit-of-power.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-abcs-of-current-events.html
20. Heirs of God (New Testament | Romans 8:13 - 21)
       13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
       14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
       15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
       16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
       17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
       18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
       19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
       20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
       21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
(New Testament | Galatians 4:4 - 9)
       4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
       5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
       6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
       7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
       8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
       9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
(New Testament | James 2:5)
       5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 15:11)
       11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.
(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 1:1 - 2)
       1 IN the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;
       2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.
21. Various versions at https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley
22. Hunt, Dave; McMahon, T.A.. America: The Sorcerer's New Apprentice. The Berean Call. Kindle Edition.
"As the goal of Eastern mysticism is to awaken man to his true but "forgotten" identity as a god, so the goal of materialistic science (through conquering the atom, space, and disease) is to establish man at last as ruler of the universe and in technological control of nature" (p. 88).
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2023/05/choose-you-this-day.html
23. Thesosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2016/06/6-flags.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-imitation-war.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2022/05/multiple-mortalities.html
24. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2018/04/echoes-from-before-eden.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-hijacking-of-hierarchy.html
25. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-way-of-shortcut.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-counterfeit-wars.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-imitation-war.html
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/03/another-heads-up.html
26. HPM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Potential_Movement
27. est: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training
28. NLP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
29. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_Course
30. Energy work, etc.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine
31. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large-group_awareness_training
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2018/06/lgats-large-group-awareness-training.html
32. GFL, et al. : https://www.galacticfederationoflight.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@gflearth/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@gflstation
https://www.youtube.com/@lightguru6909
https://www.youtube.com/@celestialwisdom-es3us
https://www.youtube.com/@dnaawakening
33. Probation: https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2024/02/moral-orientation-part-iii-self-as.html (See footnote 3 therein)
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-plan.html
34. “My Church”
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 10:67 - 69)
       67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
       68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
       69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
(New Testament | Mark 9:38 - 40)
        38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
       39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
       40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 27:7 - 8)
       7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
       8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses' name then it be Moses' church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 27:21)
       21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 105:2, 17 - 19)
       2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now. ...
       17 But the strength of mine house have not hearkened unto my words.
       18 But inasmuch as there are those who have hearkened unto my words, I have prepared a blessing and an endowment for them, if they continue faithful.
      19 I have heard their prayers, and will accept their offering; and it is expedient in me that they should be brought thus far for a trial of their faith.

All the World’s Become a Stage

(The Déjà Vus of Occult Seduction)

From the book, Ancient Documents and the Pearl of Great Price, we read:

This is the story they tell between the Sethians and the Cainites [descendants of the sons of Adam: Seth, being a disciple of Jehovah; Cain, a follower of Lucifer]. … Their cultures have different traditions, but the Cainites win hands down. There's no contest here at all. It happened over many years, however. They tell us how it happened. The plains had great attraction for the more simple-living people of the high places. They naturally were enticed. Satan took charge down below. He made a covenant. They talk a lot about the covenant, how he directed them and gave them the jewelry and the beautiful clothes and loud instruments. He specialized in brass bands. This would attract the attention of the young people up on the heights. They'd come and look down with some envy at all the fun that was going on down there in the plain—all the lights, the dancing, the carousing, etc. Then we come down the list here. After Cainan and Mahalaleel, then comes Jared. His name means "going down" because that was the day when they went down from the mountain; they left it. Jared told his sons, if you ever go down there, you'll never get back. At first they didn't know the way down, so Satan had to teach them. Satan actually came with a delegation of very important-looking people. He came up and invited Jared, "Come down, Brother Jared, and visit us in the city down below. You'll see what a nice society we have and you will love to stay with us. You'll see what it's like." He was curious, so he went down with them. They dressed up like angels, and they fooled him. He actually was fooled until he got back home, and the angel came and told him, Look, this is terrible. You've been led astray. Don't let your people do this. Satan showed them a way down. There was a gully where a stream went down, and you could get down that way. They started drifting down and joining in the fun. Incidentally, when Jared went there, he was introduced into all the delights of the place. Immediately, they started giving him a real show. It was a session—a real orgy with obscene goings on, etc. He was horrified because the men who came to get him had convinced him.

And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with honest trifles, to betray 's
In deepest consequence.^[1]

They won Jared over, but he saw where it was going. Well, his kids started going down and joining in the fun. They couldn't find their way back, and they didn't want to come back either. But they were warned ("if you do"). Pretty soon there was only a small community left up on the hill, the righteous and holy ones. As I say, this is all in these very old traditions. These were discovered in the nineteenth century in several places. There are about a hundred different sources actually.²

Do we see the déjà vu? how it’s all a “great seductive show”? how much of our culture is glued to and consumed with staged extravaganzas. From padded sofas we watch stages without curtains—stages that can entertain 24-hours a day, 365 days a year; stages recorded on twirling discs that can be replayed endlessly in the comfort, privacy, secrecy of our homes. Stages designed around the repetitive promotion of all things Babylon—advertisement on advertisement; seduction upon seduction.

Then we leave our homes and go to bigger stages—to mega-theatres, auditoriums, stadiums, even vast fields where we are mesmerized by massive stages “full of sound and fury, signifying”—what? Like the children of God of olden times, we gaze in awe upon the pyrotechnics and fantasia of show upon show:

◊  Music Awards
◊  Movie Awards
◊  TV Awards
◊  Olympic ceremonies
◊  Idol searches
◊  Half-time cacophonies / gyrations
◊  Video game caverns
◊  Raves
◊  & on and on

Any and every event, an opportunity to seduce.

And we never seem to clue in.

Do we never give thought to what we are seeing? Do we even notice all the occult, satanic and luciferian seductions? Are we just repeating the fall from grace of previous children of God and think it’s all just amazing entertainment showcasing the wonders of man’s genius?

Are we being led down the garden path, passing the tree of knowledge with nary a glance, right into hell?

Pay attention if you must watch the Grammys³ this year. What are you really seeing? Are you prepared for what they are promising, planning?

What better description is there of a life in and for Babylon with all her extravaganzas and her captive “stars”⁴ than these words from the 1600s?

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.⁵

EXCEPT, living in and for Babylon does signify something—the forfeiture of all that one could have been. Thus, it signifies both nothing and everything at the same time. Which do we want to inherit?

Then let us open our eyes and see what we are seeing and hear what we are hearing. We are almost out of time.

--------------/
1. Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act 1, Scene 3
2. Hugh Nibley, Ancient Documents and the Pearl of Great Price, edited by Robert Smith and Robert Smythe [n.p., n.d.], 4-5 (bold emphasis added).
3. INTEL X LADY GAGA 720pHD ~ (2.41 min) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiSVbzp4K88&index=18&list=RDzkV4smUW6KU or
Lady Gaga, Intel - 2016 Grammy Awards ~ (1.35 min.) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkV4smUW6KU or
Last[?] Grammy Awards Ever: Lady Gaga Unveils Lucifer CERN (2016) ~ (9.45 min.) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi68YyOzjeE
4. Listen to their interviews, and ask yourself: How much of this “persona” is real and how much the construction and consequence of trauma-based mind control?
5. Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5

Strange Movements ?

http://office.microsoft.com/

(The following block quote is from Hugh Nibley, The Ancient State: The Rulers and the Ruled, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah and Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Provo, Utah, pp. 333-334  © 1981; bold emphasis added.)

The beginning of the sixth century B.C. is what Karl Jaspers calls the “Axial Period” in human history. The significance, according to Jaspers, was first noted by Lasaulx, who in 1851 wrote: “It cannot possibly be an accident that, six-hundred years before Christ, Zarathustra in Persia, Gautama Buddha in India Confucius in China, the prophets in Israel, King Numa in Rome and the first philosophers—Ionians, Dorians, and Eleatics—in Hellas, all made their appearance pretty well simultaneously as reformers of the national religion.” A strange movement of the spirit passed through all civilized peoples. The time was marked by a series of popular revolutions which everywhere saw the final overthrow of the old sacral kingship; the great social crises and world upheavals of the early second and middle sixth millennia B.C. had dealt shattering blows to the old sacral order, and the sixth century saw the completion of the process with what we might call the great Sophic revolution. With the passing of the priest-kings, people everywhere found themselves looking for some other principle of authority for the ordering of society; with oracles silent and priestly lines extinct, who would have the final word? Where could men turn for the voice of authority? What could now command their loyalty? [End of quote.]

So, if “strange movements” could characterize 600 B.C., what about other times? How about the 19th Century A.D. of Joseph Smith?

This is just another question to ponder for those reading the interesting theories of Daymon Smith.*

-----------------/
* http://daymonsmith.wordpress.com/

God* is NOT Rational !!

WHY do so many Christians (and others) keep insisting that God is (or should be) rational? Why not concede, once and for all time, this déjà vu complaint that MAN has levied against God down through the millennia? Why not admit that God has never condescended enough to be the rational God we crave?

We put God in the Dock, as C.S. Lewis says, or, more recently, in with Dawkins & co. and He, God, doesn’t fare so well. Why? Is it because we think that what we

▪ experience with our five senses;
▪ “see” with our modern instruments;
▪ presume with our mathematical formulas;
▪ assume with thought experiments;
▪ think with our limited experience;
AND
▪ would do as a loving parent;
▪ would do if we were God

is the measure of all things?

Even many of the early church fathers¹—supposedly believers in things beyond—couldn’t handle God’s “irrational” ways. Many of these “believers” mingled everything they could with Greek rational philosophy to make it intellectually palatable. Even revered Thomas Jefferson couldn’t stomach the miraculous God of scripture.²

Enamored by the Greeks (great thinkers and seekers though they were), we seem to have become so entranced by the siren song of rational philosophy that we, like sheep, have gone astray, down the MEandering, yellow-brick road of rationalism.

SO, how many times must we read:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts (Old Testament Isaiah 55:8-9),

before we actually get it? How many “irrational” stories and miracles from scripture and other witnesses do we have to hear before we grasp the message? God is NOT rational. He doesn’t claim to be rational. He tells us in a thousand different stories that He is ABOVE rational. He may reason with man at times,³ but He IS and will forever be TRANSrational this mortal realm and mortal man.

Without that understanding, nigh every rationally-obsessed, seeking soul is going to have a crisis of belief about things and powers beyond. Why does this surprise us? Why are we shocked that an increasing number of once-believing Christians, including Mormons (et al.), are losing faith:

▪ as access to “knowledge” and “reasonable” speculation increases?
▪ as scholars and historians discover new incongruities and inexplicables?
▪ as the “wise and learned” argue the bi-polar of rational vs. irrational because for them TRANSrational is not an option?
▪ as we bow to the philosophic idol of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream? (Old Testament Daniel 2:31-45)

Haven’t we read how “a stone was cut out without hands[!!] which smote the image,” breaking it to pieces and pulverizing the entire, towering idol till it was “like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors, and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them.” (Old Testament Daniel 2:34-5)

SO, let us ponder! How rational is it, in this world, for God:

▫ to ask us to believe the story of Noah and the ark? (Old Testament Genesis 6-8)

▫ to ask Abraham (and his male household, including servants) to submit to circumcision as a sign of an everlasting covenant? (Old Testament Genesis 17:10-13)

▫ to ask Abraham to sacrifice his covenant son as a burnt offering? (Old Testament Genesis 22:2)

▫ to promise that “the children of Israel shall go on dry [??!!] ground through the midst of the Sea” (Old Testament Exodus 14:16); and then to claim to actually deliver dry land in the midst of the divided waters “a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left”? (Exodus 14:29)

▫ to expect people to release all debts every 7 years? (Old Testament Deuteronomy 15:1-2, 9-10)

▫ to expect us to believe that “the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, ...”? (Old Testament Joshua 10:13-14)

▫ to ask Gideon to pare down his army of 32,000 to 300 before engaging their powerful Midianite overlords in battle? (Old Testament Judges 7:2)

▫ to put perfect Job through the wringer of contraries and confusion? (Old Testament Job 7, 10, 23, etc.)

▫ to give bizarre commandments to prophets? like those given to

Isaiah ~ to go naked and barefoot as a sign (Old Testament Isaiah 20:2-3);
Ezekiel ~ to lay about for months on his left side and then his right as a sign; and to dig through walls (Old Testament Ezekiel 4:1-8; 12:1-7);
Hosea ~ to take a wife of whoredoms (Hosea 1).

▫ to expect mortals to believe that three other mortals could walk in the midst of a “burning fiery furnace”; and that “the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them”? (Old Testament Daniel 3:23-27)

▫ to counsel followers: “That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away”? (New Testament Matthew 5:39-42)

▫ to further counsel: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”? (New Testament Matthew 5:44)

▫ to expect mortals to keep their good works under wraps as in “when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret”? (New Testament Matthew 6:3-4)

▫ to expect responsible people to “Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on”? (New Testament Matthew 6:25; see also Doctrine and Covenants 84:41)

▫ to say: “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me”? (New Testament Matthew 10:37)

▫ to affirm the story of Jonah being three days and three nights in the whale’s belly? (New Testament Matt. 12:39-40; Luke 11:29-30)

▫ to feed 5000 and then 4000 with next to nothing and to claim to have more left over than they started with? (New Testament Matthew 14:15-21; 15:32-38)

▫ to say: “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you”? (New Testament Matthew 17:20)

▫ to counsel a rich young man that “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me”? (Matthew 19:21) “ME” being one who had recently said: “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” (New Testament Matthew 8:20)

▫ to say: “...he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted”? (New Testament Matthew 23:11-12; Luke 22: 26-27)

▫ to command his Twelve missionary apostles to “Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip, [nor bread] for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat”?( New Testament Matthew 10:9-10; see also Mark 6:8-9; Luke 22:35; Doctrine and Covenants 24:18; 84:78)

▫ to tell truth seekers that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (New Testament Hebrews 11:1); “wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith”? (Book of Mormon Ether 12:6, bold emphasis added.)

▫ to ask that we mortals “lay aside the [attractive, desirable, visible] things of this world, and seek for the things of a better [unseen world!]”? (Doctrine and Covenants 25:10)

▫ to have an angel take the Gold Plates (source-records for the Book of Mormon) back from Joseph Smith, leaving him without tangible proof of his story? (Frontispiece: Book of Mormon “Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” p. 3: final paragraph, last sentence.)

and most incomprehensible of all:

▫ to stand by and sanction the torture and death of a Beloved Son? (New Testament Matthew 27:46; 3 Nephi 11:11)

▫ to WILL that this beloved, perfect Son be crucified for the sins of others? (New Testament Luke 22:42; John 4:34; Book of Mormon Mosiah 15:7; 3 Nephi 11:11)

None of these examples (and hundreds more) fit within our rational, mortal, natural-man⁴ disposition.

Philip Yancey wrote The Jesus I Never Knew to explain, in part, his discovery of a Jesus that his Church had never taught. Perhaps another book could be written titled, The (Transrational) God We Rationalized.

So why is God TRANSrational? Because:⁵

▪ He knows stuff we don’t?

... all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. (Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 2:24)

▪ He knows this union of spirit and flesh has infinite purpose?⁶

... [H]e [chastened us] for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. (New Testament Hebrews 12:10)

▪ He understands that without disturbing / discomforting reminders, we might think THIS earth and life is the best OR all there is?

Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation. (Doctrine and Covenants Section 58:3)

▪ He knew that His supernal gift of agency⁷ was going to bring out the best AND the worst in souls being tested for eternity; BUT that somehow (comprehensible to Him), justice and mercy (through the atonement of His Son) would work out all the messy, cruel, despicable, wretched, abominable choices too many of us make while in pursuit of “our way” and The Three Temptations?

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; ... blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: ... (Old Testament Deuteronomy 30:15, 19-20);

And now remember, remember, ... that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free. He hath given unto you that ye might know good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might choose life or death; and ye can do good and be restored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you. (Book of Mormon Helaman 14:30-31)

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. (Old Testament 1 Samuel 2:8-9)

“ ... the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.” (New Testament Revelation 7:17)

... the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul. And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it. Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father; (Doctrine and Covenants Section 88:16-19)

From His higher place, He makes perfect sense to Himself and His purposes, even if not to us. (In déjà vu of mortal parents and teenagers?!)

In listening to painful stories of wandering and wondering souls, it seems the main reasons we lose faith are because:

1. We have wrapped our celestial God in rational robes and suffer confusion and despair when He doesn’t play to the “reasonable” script we have assigned Him;

2. He doesn’t behave like the loving parent of our expectation or preference.

3. We don’t like being peculiar, confused, mocked, persecuted, in pain, or seeing others in pain. We don’t like the submission and sacrifices He seems to expect. We don’t like our hearts broken.⁸ We don’t like or comprehend what He allows. We can’t fathom how any of this can be made right.

4. Maybe most of all, we don’t comprehend faith (or perhaps don’t want to), being: “the substance [assurance—JST] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”⁹ But, as I have asked elsewhere: HOW is God going to test/prove/try us? by NOT offending our sense of logic and reason? by always confirming our faith-based, telestial/terrestrial perceptions and biases? by offering up physical evidence? by preventing contradictory, confusing evidence? by making it easy to believe? by flooding us with “rational” signs? by preventing every bad choice or consequence? ... What better way to push us toward “the evidence of things not seen” than to hopelessly confound the “evidence of things seen?”

Whatever our individual reasons, wouldn’t life be more understandable, endurable, AND (sometimes) enjoyable if we just got over insisting that God be “our kind of” rational? It might help if we:

Let God be omniscient.

Let Him be a God of miracles and inexplicables.¹⁰

Understood that if we can’t get beyond rational, we won’t get beyond telestial / terrestrial.¹¹

Sought to look beyond sight and to hear beyond hearing, as in:

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon [us], the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make [us] of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and [we] shall not judge after the sight of [our] eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of [our] ears: (Old Testament Isaiah 11:2-3)

Remembered the ancient ones:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (New Testament Hebrews 11:13-16, bold emphasis added.)

So, whether we like it or not, God is NOT rational. And despite Dawkins & co., He is NOT an irrational figment. He is our loving, kind, merciful, just, gracious, powerful, unchanging, TRANSrational Father—however it may appear to rational, mortal minds. The choice is ever before us as in ages past:

Rational / Natural-Man legacy?¹²
(i.e., that ancient philosophic idol headed up by Babylon of old)
OR
Heir?
(through faith, repentance, obedience, & Christ)

~~~~~~~~~~

Wherefore thou art no more a servant,
but a son [/daughter];
and if a son [/daughter],
then an heir of God through Christ.
(New Testament Galatians 4:7)

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* Or more accurately, “the Gods,” as Pearl of Great Price Abraham 4 & 5 reveal.
1. Read Hugh Nibley’s, The World and the Prophets concerning the Christian church of the early 1st to 4th century and beyond, or listen to his radio lecture series, Time Vindicates the Prophets (some are on YouTube).
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible . [ This following paragraph added November 17, 2014: However, I have come across an alternative interpretation of the "cut up" New Testament. Perhaps Jefferson was not clipping out (or discarding?) the miracles, but was collating the precise, spoken words of Jesus in a small book to carry with him for quick and easy reference. Perhaps this is the better explanation considering the Lord’s words in Doctrine and Covenants | Section 101:80 ~ “And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.” BUT again, other correspondence of Jefferson’s (as noted in the wiki reference) may support the conclusion of his preference to do without the miracles. Whatever the motive, we can remember that God can inspire good, imperfect, free-thinking men and women to accomplish His grand purposes.]
3. Doctrine and Covenants Section 50:10-12 ~ “And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand; Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.” (See also Isaiah 1:18)
4. Book of Mormon Mosiah 3:19 ~ “For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” For one example of a “natural man” read about Korihor in Book of Mormon Alma 30:12-18, bold emphasis added.)
5. These are some additional supporting scriptures for this next section: New Testament 1 John 3:20 ~ “... God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things”; Book of Mormon Alma 32:6 ~ ... “he beheld that their afflictions had truly humbled them, and that they were in a preparation to hear the word” (see also 32:13); Pearl of Great Price Moses 1:39 ~ “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”
6. Doctrine and Covenants Section 93:33-34 ~ “For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.”
7. Scriptural references to agency: Doctrine and Covenants Section 29:36 ~ “And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency”; Doctrine and Covenants Section 93:31 ~ “Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light”; Doctrine and Covenants Section 101:78 ~ “That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment”; Pearl of Great Price Moses 4:3 ~ “Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down”; Pearl of Great Price Moses 7:32 ~ “The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;”
8. Doctrine and Covenants Section 59:8 ~ “Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.” (See also Old Testament Psalms 38:4)
9. See also Book of Mormon Alma 32:21 ~ “... if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
10. New Testament 1 Corinthians 2:9- 14 ~ “... the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”; Old Testament Isaiah 28:21 ~ “For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.”
11. New Testament 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 ~ “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead”; Doctrine and Covenants Section 76:71, 78, 81 ~ “And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. ... Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.” ... And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.” For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory”; Doctrine and Covenants Section 88:22-24 ~ “And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.”
12. Rational heritage includes the natural man of Mosiah 3:19 (see footnote 4); and if we think rational heritage arrived with the Greeks, we’ll probably be surprised when all things are revealed. Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 30:16-18 ~ “... the things of all nations shall be made known; yea, all things shall be made known unto the children of men. There is nothing which is secret save it shall be revealed; there is no work of darkness save it shall be made manifest in the light; and there is nothing which is sealed upon the earth save it shall be loosed. Wherefore, all things which have been revealed unto the children of men shall at that day be revealed.”

"Approaching Zion Project"

I have begun following the "Approaching Zion Project" initiated by Sam Brunson at Times and Seasons*. His second post raises a major issue for him, being what he terms: Nibley’s generalizations about people and his mischaracterizations concerning the rich.

For those who share his concerns, I submit that the same charges of generalization and mischaracterization could be levied against every prophet, and even, the Father and the Son, themselves. Isn’t Nibley just déjà vu the scriptures? Has he said anything more than others have said? as in:

THE LORD: And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. (Old Testament Deuteronomy 31:16)

ISAIAH: O house of Jacob, come ye and let us walk in the light of the Lord; yea, come, for ye have all gone astray, every one to his wicked ways. (Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 12:5)

ISAIAH: HEAR ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. ... Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; (Old Testament Isaiah 48:1, 4)

ISAIAH: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Old Testament Isaiah 53:6)

JEREMIAH: Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. (Old Testament Jeremiah 51:17)

JESUS: And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (New Testament Matthew 19:24)

GOD: Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. (New Testament Hebrews 3:10)

JACOB (bro. of Nephi): But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also. (Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 9:30)

HELAMAN: AND thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him. Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity. ... O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world! Yea, how quick to be lifted up in pride; yea, how quick to boast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to walk in wisdom's paths! Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide. (Book of Mormon Helaman 12:1-2, 4-6)

This is just a minuscule sample. In addition, we could do a scripture search of the terms: “this people” or “my people” and witness how consistently general, God seems to remain. Why generalizations? Could it be the BIG picture? the unending déjà vu of things? a perpetual warning? a scriptural perspective of predispositions?

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* http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2013/05/the-approaching-zion-project-what-is-zion-a-distant-view/ (This déjà vu is an elaboration on my comment #49.)