Asenath (Wife of Joseph): Hebrew or Egyptian?

See footnote 3

(Since fog and overcast skies have hidden most of the sky of January 2025 I have seen the moon only 3 or 4 times, and thus have no observations to report so, in the meantime, we’ll consider Asenath.)

In the beginning of the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob legacies, particular attention was given to marrying within the Hebrew bloodline. Here are five examples:

26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
27 ¶ Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot [Sarai & Milcah].
28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.
29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah [Sarai/Sarah¹].
(Old Testament | Genesis 11:26-29)

1 AND Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things.
2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.
(Old Testament | Genesis 24:1-4)

1 AND Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
2 Arise, go to Padan-aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
(Old Testament | Genesis 28:1–2)

34 ¶ And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:
35 Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
(Old Testament | Genesis 26:34-35)

5 And Isaac sent away Jacob: and he went to Padan-aram unto Laban, son of Bethuel the Syrian, the brother of Rebekah, Jacob's and Esau's mother.
6 ¶ When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padan-aram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan;
7 And that Jacob obeyed his father and his mother, and was gone to Padan-aram;
8 And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father;
9 Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.
(Old Testament | Genesis 28:5-9)

The myths and legends that have evolved around Joseph in Egypt are numerous with some contradictory elements and probable embellishments, but nonetheless, a wonderful story of how God might have woven two tragedies effecting two people: Dinah (mother of Asenath²) and enslaved Joseph into an incredible account of how (in the words of Joseph from a verse musical³:)

Surely in these years I have seen
How oft good comes out of bad;
How always light breaks up the night
How my God sets things right
That seem impossibly wrong.

Most are unaware of the fascinating story that goes beyond Genesis where 17-year old, newly minted slave Joseph first encounters Asenath, the 6-year old “foster-daughter” of Potiphar and Zelicah, the woman who plagued Joseph so relentlessly in Memphis. After serving 12-years in prison to white-wash “the stain that might leak, Upon Zelicah’s fair name,” 30-year old Joseph (now second in command in Egypt) visits Potiphar and Zelicah, (now in Heliopolis) where he re-encounters Asenath, now 18-years old; and as they say, the rest is history. But, if you are interested in exploring more of this possible, unsung history, you can find it at:

▪ Louis Ginzberg, The Legends of the Jews, Trans. by Henrietta Szold, 1968.
     Legends—Vol. 2: 15-23; 38-77; 139; 170-174
     Legends—Vol. 5: Notes (pp. 336/n97; 338/n105; 338/n107; 340/n126; 341/n133; 341/n134; 342/n142; 361/n339; 365/n370; 369/n400
▪ The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. Edited by James H. Charlesworth,1983.
     OTP—Vol. 1: The Testament of Joseph |. pp. 819-825
     OTP—Vol. 2: Jubilees | pp. 128-130
▪ The Book of Jasher. Pub. by J. H. Parry & Company, 1887.
     pp. 120-124, 128-134, 136-137, 140-147
▪ Old Testament—Genesis | chpts. 37, 39–41
▪ Josephus, Complete Works. Trans. by William Whiston, 1960.
     pp. 46-49 | chpts. IV–VI

Here are two samples to whet your appetite:

Ginzberg, Louis. The Legends of the Jews — Volume 2 (p. 37). Kindle Edition.
“Asenath was the daughter of Dinah and Hamor [Shechem], but she was abandoned at the borders of Egypt, only, that people might know who she was, Jacob engraved the story of her parentage and her birth upon a gold plate fastened around her neck. The day on which Asenath was exposed, Potiphar went walking with his servants near the city wall, and they heard the voice of a child. At the captain's bidding they brought the baby to him, and when he read her history from the gold plate, he determined to adopt her. He took her home with him, and raised her as his daughter.”
(Pseudo-Philo–314) reference to rape of Dinah by Shechem, the Hurrite.

OTP—Vol. 2: Joseph and Aseneth | pp. 177, 202-238, 245
(202) Pentephres [aka Potiphar] (P) is a wise counselor to Pharaoh and priest of Heliopolis, the place known as Sun City [Heliopolis]; an important centre of the Sun god Rê (footnote e);
(203) Aseneth (A) is very tall and beautiful "beyond all virgins" whose fame of beauty had spread far and wide; in appearance A was like the Hebrews; there was much wrangling amongst her suitors and attempts to fight one another; she lived in seclusion (footnote 2a) and no man had ever seen her; her arrogance was against suitors, not others (footnote 2a);
(204) her rooms contained many gods that she worshipped;
(205) Joseph (J) (while touring the lands to store up corn) sends a message to P of his intention to arrive for "lunch"; P speeds servants ahead to prepare while he and Zelicah (Z) hurry home from their inheritance field / estate (footnote 3i); P is thrilled with the possibilities of a match between A & J; Z is afraid of possible revenge;
(206) P makes his proposal to A that she marry J;
(207) A (who does not know that Zaphnath-paaneah is J replies in shock and rejection just as a servant enters to say J is at the gate;
(208-209) A flees to her room; J offers a heavy-laden olive branch to P & Z [a gesture of “forgive and forget”?]; A sees J from her window [recognizes and remembers him as Joseph of her childhood] and is stricken with remorse for her words and judgments;
(210-213) A & J meet;
(214) J agrees to return in 8 days;
(215-216) A fasts seven days and nights and weeps; she puts on the somber black tunic of mourning that she wore when her brother died; she casts away her idols, goodly clothes, jewelry, and statues out the back window to the poor;
(217-224) A's soliloquies of remorse, fear, grief, repentance; [“Have I been too foolish? Too strangely believing? Giving to the image What the Living deserved?”]; the eighth day, A feels hope, and sees the morning star; an angel appears in her locked room;
(225-231) the angel directs A to put off her mourning tunic and to dress in a new linen robe; he blesses and comforts her and pronounces her betrothal to J if they both accept the plan; he tells her he will visit J and tell him about A’s acceptance of his God;
(235) Pharaoh performs the marriage;
(245) A's prayer: "Lord my God, who make me alive again / and rescued me from the idols and the corruption of death, / who said to me, 'Your soul will live for ever,'" ...

Scholars and readers may differ on who Asenath really is, but the Legends tell an incredible story of human follies and unfathomable futures.

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1. Ginzberg, Louis. The Legends of the Jews — Volume 1 (p. 89). Kindle Edition.
“For a period of two years Abraham could devote himself undisturbed to his chosen task of turning the hearts of men to God and His teachings.[41] In his pious undertaking he was aided by his wife Sarah, whom he had married in the meantime. While he exhorted the men and sought to convert them, Sarah addressed herself to the women.[42] She was a helpmeet worthy of Abraham. Indeed, in prophetical powers she ranked higher than her husband.[43] She was sometimes called Iscah, "the seer," on that account.[44]” (Bold emphasis added.)
2. Ginzberg, Louis. The Legends of the Jews — Volume 2 (p. 63). Kindle Edition.
[As Jacob was dying in Goshen Egypt] “Joseph received two gifts from his father. The first was Shechem, the city that Jacob had defended, with sword and bow, against the depredations of the Amorite kings when they tried to take revenge upon his sons for the outrage committed there. And the second gift was the garments made by God for Adam and passed from hand to hand, until they came into the possession of Jacob. Shechem was his reward, because, with his chastity, he stemmed the tide of immorality that burst loose in Shechem first of all.[377] Besides, he had a prior claim upon the city. Shechem, son of Hamor, the master of the city, had given it to Dinah as a present, and the wife of Joseph, Asenath, being the daughter of Dinah, the city belonged to him by right.[378]” (Bold emphasis added.)
3. The verse musical was published online in 2019 but has been recently slightly revised and will be republished soon.

Are We Ready for More?

▪ What will our attitude be if “new” words are brought forth in a manner as unorthodox as the Book of Mormon was brought forth¹?
▪ Will we LDS insist that God act only through our leaders²?
▪ What if God’s end-time servant appears as unexpectedly, inconveniently as Samuel the Lamanite did, decrying wickedness and crying repentance³?
▪ What if an end-time, unconventional,⁴ righteous servant brings forth sealed records (as in marked with a seal)?
▪ Will we be open to discerning or will we shut off inquiry because of preconceptions?

If we believe in this:

Know ye not that there are more nations than one? ... and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? ... For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:7, 11-12);⁵

For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true (Book of Mormon | Alma 29:8);

yes, if we believe more words are to come forth, then this recent “Rood Awakening!” may prove a timely discovery and opportunity to exercise discernment. And IF this proves out, what a remarkable witness calling all nations to consider and reconsider the Book of Mormon.

BREAKING Book of Mormon Evidence! Gold Plates Found in Saudi Arabia!
(The Stick of Joseph | Apr 3, 2024 | Time 1:31:15 min.) at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Mri2mBMj4
Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20240404144122/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Mri2mBMj4
Update Apr 5, 2024: MORE INFORMATION On the Saudi Arabian Gold Books
The Stick of Joseph | Apr 5, 2024 | 49:07 min.) at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdHcfug0UMI




(A Rood Awakening! | Mar 29, 2024 | Time 57:19 min.) at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlzwDcsWw04
Archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20240404144345/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlzwDcsWw04

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1. Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1
JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY
EXTRACTS FROM THE HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH, THE PROPHET
History of the Church, Vol. 1, Chapters 1–5
2. Concerning Bruce R. McConkie’s expectation of how more records promised to come forth will come (which is also the unshakable expectation of many LDS): “records that will come forth in a marvelous manner, at the direction of the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who is a revelator and a translator and who holds the keys of the kingdom of God on earth as pertaining to all men, the Ten Tribes included” (The Millennial Messiah, 217). (Accessible with subscription at https://archive.org/details/millennialmessia0000mcco/page/217/mode/1up)
3. Book of Mormon | Helaman 13:1-5
   1 AND now it came to pass in the eighty and sixth year, the Nephites did still remain in wickedness, yea, in great wickedness, while the Lamanites did observe strictly to keep the commandments of God, according to the law of Moses.
   2 And it came to pass that in this year there was one Samuel, a Lamanite, came into the land of Zarahemla, and began to preach unto the people. And it came to pass that he did preach, many days, repentance unto the people, and they did cast him out, and he was about to return to his own land.
   3 But behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, that he should return again, and prophesy unto the people whatsoever things should come into his heart.
   4 And it came to pass that they would not suffer that he should enter into the city; therefore he went and got upon the wall thereof, and stretched forth his hand and cried with a loud voice, and prophesied unto the people whatsoever things the Lord put into his heart.
   5 And he said unto them: Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the words of the Lord which he doth put into my heart; and behold he hath put it into my heart to say unto this people that the sword of justice hangeth over this people;
4. (and when were any of the Old and New Testament prophets conventional)
5. Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:1-14 (Full quote in context)
   1 BUT behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
   2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
   3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
   4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
   5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
   6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
   7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
   8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
   9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
   10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
   11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
   12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
   13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
   14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

Respecting / Obeying “Authority”: What of the Prophets, et al.?

Thru the Prism
of Scripture

Further to the post “What Did Jesus Do?”* concerning “authority,” let us briefly consider what His prophets and other believers did through the ages. And if they, too, disrespected authority what is the common denominator? The corruption of peoples and their “authorities”? If we pay attention, almost every God-fearing soul in scripture disrespected corrupted authority? The following are just a few abbreviated accounts of accusation and exposure of that corruption:

Enoch
37 And it came to pass that Enoch went forth in the land, among the people, standing upon the hills and the high places, and cried with a loud voice, testifying against their works; and all men were offended because of him (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 6:37).

Noah
20 And it came to pass that Noah called upon the children of men that they should repent; but they hearkened not unto his words;
21 And also, after that they had heard him, they came up before him, saying: Behold, we are the sons of God; have we not taken unto ourselves the daughters of men? And are we not eating and drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage? And our wives bear unto us children, and the same are mighty men, which are like unto men of old, men of great renown. And they hearkened not unto the words of Noah.
22 And God saw that the wickedness of men had become great in the earth; and every man was lifted up in the imagination of the thoughts of his heart, being only evil continually.
23 And it came to pass that Noah continued his preaching unto the people, saying: Hearken, and give heed unto my words;
24 Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 8:20-24).

Moses
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw that he was a peculiar child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years of discretion, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible (JST New Testament | Hebrews 11:23-27).
1 AND the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
2 And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
3 And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
4 And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants (Old Testament | Exodus 8:1-4; see also 9 other plagues).

Abraham
5 My fathers having turned from their righteousness, and from the holy commandments which the Lord their God had given unto them, unto the worshiping of the gods of the heathen, utterly refused to hearken to my voice;
6 For their hearts were set to do evil, and were wholly turned to the god of Elkenah, and the god of Libnah, and the god of Mahmackrah, and the god of Korash, and the god of Pharaoh, king of Egypt;
7 Therefore they turned their hearts to the sacrifice of the heathen in offering up their children unto these dumb idols, and hearkened not unto my voice, but endeavored to take away my life by the hand of the priest of Elkenah. The priest of Elkenah was also the priest of Pharaoh.
8 Now, at this time it was the custom of the priest of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, to offer up upon the altar which was built in the land of Chaldea, for the offering unto these strange gods, men, women, and children.
9 And it came to pass that the priest made an offering unto the god of Pharaoh, and also unto the god of Shagreel, even after the manner of the Egyptians. Now the god of Shagreel was the sun.
10 Even the thank–offering of a child did the priest of Pharaoh offer upon the altar which stood by the hill called Potiphar's Hill, at the head of the plain of Olishem.
11 Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham. These virgins were offered up because of their virtue; they would not bow down to worship gods of wood or of stone, therefore they were killed upon this altar, and it was done after the manner of the Egyptians.
12 And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also (Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 1:5-12),

Elijah
17 ¶ And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?
18 And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim (Old Testament | 1 Kings 18:17-18).

Elisha
32 But Elisha sat in his house, and the elders sat with him; and the king sent a man from before him: but ere the messenger came to him, he said to the elders, See ye how this son of a murderer hath sent to take away mine head? look, when the messenger cometh, shut the door, and hold him fast at the door: is not the sound of his master's feet behind him? (Old Testament | 2 Kings 6:32)

Isaiah
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 ¶ Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment (Old Testament | Isaiah 1:4-6).
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter (Old Testament | Isaiah 56:10-11).

Jeremiah
1 THE word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD in the tenth year of Zedekiah king of Judah, which was the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar.
2 For then the king of Babylon's army besieged Jerusalem: and Jeremiah the prophet was shut up in the court of the prison, which was in the king of Judah's house.
3 For Zedekiah king of Judah had shut him up, saying, Wherefore dost thou prophesy, and say, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall take it;
4 And Zedekiah king of Judah shall not escape out of the hand of the Chaldeans, but shall surely be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon, and shall speak with him mouth to mouth, and his eyes shall behold his eyes;
5 And he shall lead Zedekiah to Babylon, and there shall he be until I visit him, saith the LORD: though ye fight with the Chaldeans, ye shall not prosper? (Old Testament | Jeremiah 32:1-5)

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego
12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
13 ¶ Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego. Then they brought these men before the king.
14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up (Old Testament | Daniel 3:12-18).

Daniel
10 ¶ Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.
12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day (Old Testament | Daniel 6:10-13).

Amos
14 ¶ Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
15 And the LORD took me as I followed the flock, and the LORD said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.
16 ¶ Now therefore hear thou the word of the LORD: Thou sayest, Prophesy not against Israel, and drop not thy word against the house of Isaac.
17 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Thy wife shall be an harlot in the city, and thy sons and thy daughters shall fall by the sword, and thy land shall be divided by line; and thou shalt die in a polluted land: and Israel shall surely go into captivity forth of his land (Old Testament | Amos 7:14-17).

Micah
1 WOE to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.
2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.
3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil (Old Testament | Micah 2:1-3).

Lehi
18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard.
19 And it came to pass that the Jews did mock him because of the things which he testified of them; for he truly testified of their wickedness and their abominations; and he testified that the things which he saw and heard, and also the things which he read in the book, manifested plainly of the coming of a Messiah, and also the redemption of the world.
20 And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 1:18-20).

Alma / Amulek
2 But the more part of them were desirous that they might destroy Alma and Amulek; for they were angry with Alma, because of the plainness of his words unto Zeezrom; and they also said that Amulek had lied unto them, and had reviled against their law and also against their lawyers and judges.
3 And they were also angry with Alma and Amulek; and because they had testified so plainly against their wickedness, they sought to put them away privily.
4 But it came to pass that they did not; but they took them and bound them with strong cords, and took them before the chief judge of the land.
5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land (Book of Mormon | Alma 14:2–5).

Abinadi
20 And it came to pass that there was a man among them whose name was Abinadi; and he went forth among them, and began to prophesy, saying: Behold, thus saith the Lord, and thus hath he commanded me, saying, Go forth, and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord—Wo be unto this people, for I have seen their abominations, and their wickedness, and their whoredoms; and except they repent I will visit them in mine anger.
21 And except they repent and turn to the Lord their God, behold, I will deliver them into the hands of their enemies; yea, and they shall be brought into bondage; and they shall be afflicted by the hand of their enemies.
22 And it shall come to pass that they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and am a jealous God, visiting the iniquities of my people.
23 And it shall come to pass that except this people repent and turn unto the Lord their God, they shall be brought into bondage; and none shall deliver them, except it be the Lord the Almighty God (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 11:20–23).
9 Now Abinadi said unto him: I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people, for they are true; and that ye may know of their surety I have suffered myself that I have fallen into your hands.
10 Yea, and I will suffer even until death, and I will not recall my words, and they shall stand as a testimony against you. And if ye slay me ye will shed innocent blood, and this shall also stand as a testimony against you at the last day (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 17:9-10).

Captain Moroni
[Moroni mispreceived who was corrupt, but this expresses his attitude to corruption.]
1 AND it came to pass that he wrote again to the governor of the land, who was Pahoran, and these are the words which he wrote, saying: Behold, I direct mine epistle to Pahoran, in the city of Zarahemla, who is the chief judge and the governor over the land, and also to all those who have been chosen by this people to govern and manage the affairs of this war.
2 For behold, I have somewhat to say unto them by the way of condemnation; for behold, ye yourselves know that ye have been appointed to gather together men, and arm them with swords, and with cimeters, and all manner of weapons of war of every kind, and send forth against the Lamanites, in whatsoever parts they should come into our land.
3 And now behold, I say unto you that myself, and also my men, and also Helaman and his men, have suffered exceedingly great sufferings; yea, even hunger, thirst, and fatigue, and all manner of afflictions of every kind.
4 But behold, were this all we had suffered we would not murmur nor complain.
5 But behold, great has been the slaughter among our people; yea, thousands have fallen by the sword, while it might have otherwise been if ye had rendered unto our armies sufficient strength and succor for them. Yea, great has been your neglect towards us.
6 And now behold, we desire to know the cause of this exceedingly great neglect; yea, we desire to know the cause of your thoughtless state.
7 Can you think to sit upon your thrones in a state of thoughtless stupor, while your enemies are spreading the work of death around you? Yea, while they are murdering thousands of your brethren—
8 Yea, even they who have looked up to you for protection, yea, have placed you in a situation that ye might have succored them, yea, ye might have sent armies unto them, to have strengthened them, and have saved thousands of them from falling by the sword (Book of Mormon | Alma 60:1–8).
24 And now, except ye do repent of that which ye have done, and begin to be up and doing, and send forth food and men unto us, and also unto Helaman, that he may support those parts of our country which he has regained, and that we may also recover the remainder of our possessions in these parts, behold it will be expedient that we contend no more with the Lamanites until we have first cleansed our inward vessel, yea, even the great head of our government.
25 And except ye grant mine epistle, and come out and show unto me a true spirit of freedom, and strive to strengthen and fortify our armies, and grant unto them food for their support, behold I will leave a part of my freemen to maintain this part of our land, and I will leave the strength and the blessings of God upon them, that none other power can operate against them—(Book of Mormon | Alma 60:24–25).

Nephi₂
1 AND now it came to pass that when Nephi had said these words, behold, there were men who were judges, who also belonged to the secret band of Gadianton, and they were angry, and they cried out against him, saying unto the people: Why do ye not seize upon this man and bring him forth, that he may be condemned according to the crime which he has done?
2 Why seest thou this man, and hearest him revile against this people and against our law?
3 For behold, Nephi had spoken unto them concerning the corruptness of their law; yea, many things did Nephi speak which cannot be written; and nothing did he speak which was contrary to the commandments of God.
4 And those judges were angry with him because he spake plainly unto them concerning their secret works of darkness; nevertheless, they durst not lay their own hands upon him, for they feared the people lest they should cry out against them.
5 Therefore they did cry unto the people, saying: Why do you suffer this man to revile against us? For behold he doth condemn all this people, even unto destruction; yea, and also that these our great cities shall be taken from us, that we shall have no place in them (Book of Mormon | Helaman 8:1-5).

Samuel, the Lamanite
29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
30 Yea, behold, the anger of the Lord is already kindled against you; behold, he hath cursed the land because of your iniquity (Book of Mormon | Helaman 13:29-30).

Peter and the other apostles
27 And when they had brought them [Peter and the other apostles], they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 ¶ Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33 ¶ When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them (New Testament | Acts 5:27-33).

This is just a sample from prior millennia. In more recent times, we have the remarkable U.S. Constitution that was hammered out during resistance to corrupted authority.

In the next post, I intend to consider: What authority is worthy of respect and obedience, and why?

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* https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2023/10/respecting-obeying-authority-what-did.html

Blind to Parallels?

Last Sunday, I listened (via zoom) to a lesson based on Daniel 3 (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego) and 6 (Daniel in the den of lions). As I listened to the teachers and to class comments, I wondered if any latter-day parallels (recent mandates) would be acknowledged. I did not hear any, and I wonder if it is even possible to discuss mandate parallels in the divisive, fearful climate that has been created in the last two plus years.

Of course, our recent test¹ did not amount [or did it?] to a burning fiery furnace, but can we not see any example or parallel? We were not faced (this time around) with imminent death for refusing to obey authorities or alleged experts, but many experienced significant loss of freedoms and livelihood; discrimination and invective²; and the “fury” of some leaders, enforcers, and narrative believers who were alarmed or terrified by MSM reports (and distortions).

But what is the purpose of scripture and history, if not to acknowledge the examples and parallels for our day?

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace [or any other unlawful order or power abuse or lie], and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image [of pscience³] which thou hast set up.
19 ¶ Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego: (Old Testament | Daniel 3:16-19)

Millions of us have witnessed:

▪ how the visage of presidents, prime ministers, and others was changed in a matter of days against those refusing experimental vaccination;

▪ how once respected citizens were suddenly anathema — despised as selfish, unchristian, morally deficient, anti-science, etc. by leaders, family, friends, and others (review footnote 2);

▪ how all the admirable progress of the last half-century toward more universal equity and justice has been suddenly upended by an oppressive, bullying, cultural shift.

And what of Daniel who, with his friends, had the wisdom and courage to refuse the king's food? or to disrespect the king's decree forbidding prayer [religious gathering?] (Old Testament | Daniel 6:7)?

On the other hand, how many latter-day authorities, professionals, enforcers, and others have been caught unwittingly in a power-grab conspiracy, not unlike the entrapment of king Darius?

3 Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm.
4 ¶ Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he was faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him.
5 Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.
6 Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.
7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
10 ¶ Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.
12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day.
14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him.
15 Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.
16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.
18 ¶ Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before him: and his sleep went from him. (Old Testament | Daniel 6:3–18)

How many parallels might we be missing?

Now two questions for those who still believe the COVID narrative⁴ or the predictive programming of more illness to come; or that safety ranks above freedom; or that contagion risk makes our day unique and, thus, has nothing in common with Daniel. Consider:

▪ if CV were a conspiracy⁵ of power to destroy human rights and freedoms and God's creation;
▪ if Pharma corps have already been fined billions for fraud⁶;
▪ if many pro-experimental-vax advocates are heavily invested in Pharma shares or lucrative patents;
▪ if more illness is undoubtedly coming because the CV power-grab and the public's conversion to pscience and fear was so enormously successful;

then, 1) how can you know whether the unexplained increases in death⁷ and illness are another CV variant OR intentional fallout from the experimental alleged cure? and 2) will your continued support or belief have consequence⁸?

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1. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-three-temptations-2021-conversion.html
2. Evidence of hostility and hatred:
If these vlogs become censored, plug the link into the WayBackMachine (https://archive.org/web/) to access:
▪ They Can Backtrack All They Like. We Will Never Forget (We Got a Problem | November 7, 2022 | Time 30:48 min.) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MfUPyQug8k
▪ Amnesty? Forgiveness? No Chance (We Got a Problem | November 6, 2022 | Time 6:09 min.) at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JPC8GCLqsA
At some point each individual will have a choice to forgive or not the injuries or harms they individually suffered, but to forget as a society is to invite egregious repetition. These compilations witness the bullying, dark-side of human nature where safety becomes the prime value of fear-driven acolytes of a Domination System that has been pursuing total control and WO for millennia.
3. Pscience is the corrupted offshoot of honorable Science. It is the inevitable consequence of man's obsessive pursuit and protection of power, gain, glory, and domination. Pscience is pseudo, psychopathic, propagandizing, plagiarizing, psy-opic, and above all, profit-obsessed, and profit-driven. This obsessive pursuit and protection by people without conscience is often enabled by naïve, trusting, or fear-filled acolytes. Pscience is a one-faith, one-dogma, heretic-fearing, self-deceiving, other-censoring system. The 21st Century question is: What are we now enabling or supporting? Science or pscience?
https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2021/12/when-pscience-becomes-god.html
https://dejavu-times.blogspot.com/2021/06/death-of-science-tyranny-of-pscience.html
https://dejavu-times.blogspot.com/2020/10/pscience.html
https://dejavu-times.blogspot.com/2021/07/a-representative-history-of-pscience.html
4. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2021/10/what-is-covid-narrative.html
5. https://dejavu-times.blogspot.com/2022/11/a-short-message-to-news-reporters.html
https://dejavu-times.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-conspiracy-option.html
6. https://moc-n-dox.blogspot.com/2021/11/trust-us-honest.html
7. https://moc-n-dox.blogspot.com/2022/08/uknown-unexplained.html
8. Book of Mormon | Ether 8:22-26
   22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.
   23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
   24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
   25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
   26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

Speaking Truth to Power | New Testament

Seeing we see not;
hearing we hear not

Those in power seldom favor free speech. History and human nature prove this over and over. Even many of us without much power aren't that keen on free speech if it challenges deeply-held beliefs or narrative commitments (which seems the reason for avoiding religion and politics in social situations — though now recently expanded to include freedom and public health mandates).

As we daily witness, free speech has become so offensive to the powers and their believers, they have taken to labelling all speech that challenges their character or narratives as mis- and disinformation — being for them egregious forms of evil speaking that cannot be tolerated no matter how true the “evil speaking” may prove. So let's review some of the “evil speaking” preserved in Holy Writ. To keep this post manageable, we will first sample from the New Testament.

Jesus to scribes and Pharisees:

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ...
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.¹

[Count the woes and hypocrites!]
13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? ...
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? ...
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.²

6 He [Jesus] answered and said unto them [Pharisees and scribes] , Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.³

Jesus to Pharisees and Sadducces:

3 O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;⁴

Jesus to Pharisees, disciples of Pharisees, Herodians, lawyers:

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?⁵

37 ¶ And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.
38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.
39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?
41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
45 ¶ Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.
46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.⁶

Jesus to the chief priests and elders

31 ... Jesus saith unto them [the chief priests and the elders of the people – v. 23], Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.⁷

John the Baptist to Pharisees and Sadducees

7 ¶ But when [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.⁸

John the Baptist to Herod

17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John [the Baptist], and bound him in prison for Herodias' sake, his brother Philip's wife: for he had married her.
18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.⁹

Apostles Peter and John to the rulers, elders, scribes, et al. including Annas (v. 6) the high priest,  and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest,

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13 ¶ Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.¹⁰

Stephen to the synagogue of the Libertines, Cyrenians, Alexandrians, them of Cilicia and of Asia, and the people, the elders, the scribes, and the council (6:9, 12) circa 30s AD:

51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.¹¹

Apostle Paul to high priest Ananias:

1 AND Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.¹²

For those who think only powers should speak truth to other powers, consider:

JST Jesus to His disciples (black and red bold is JST):

6 And Jesus said unto his disciples, Beholdest thou the scribes,* and the Pharisees, and the Priests, and the Levites? They teach in their synagogues, but do not observe the law, nor the commandments; and all have gone out of the way, and are under sin.
7 Go thou and say unto them, Why teach ye men the law and the commandments, when ye yourselves are the children of corruption?
8 5 Say unto them, Thou hypocrite Ye hypocrites, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye eyes; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
9 Go ye into the world, saying unto all, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come nigh unto you.¹³
[See the disciples response in JST vs. 14-15.¹⁴]

For a broader previous discussion, see https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2016/01/part-two-evil-speaking-discernment.html

Coming soon: samples of speaking truth to power from the Old Testament.

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1. New Testament | Matthew 15:3–9
2. New Testament | Matthew 23:13–36
3. New Testament | Mark 7:6
4. New Testament | Matthew 16:3–4
5. New Testament | Matthew 22:18
6. New Testament | Luke 11:37–52
7. New Testament | Matthew 21:31, 23
8. New Testament | Matthew 3:7–9
9. New Testament | Mark 6:17-18; see also Matthew 14:4)
10. New Testament | Acts 4:8–20
11. New Testament | Acts 7:51–54
12. New Testament | Acts 23:1–5
13. JST New Testament | Matthew 7:6–9 from Lutes, Kenneth and Lyndell. Joseph Smith Translation (p. 2124). Lutes Publishing. Kindle Edition.
14. JST New Testament | Matthew 7:14-15 from Lutes, Kenneth and Lyndell. Joseph Smith Translation (pp. 2124-2125). Lutes Publishing. Kindle Edition
   14 And then said his disciples unto him, They will say unto us, We ourselves are righteous, and need not that any man should teach us. God, we know, heard Moses and some of the prophets; but us he will not hear.
   15 And they will say, We have the law for our salvation, and that is sufficient for us.

Do Pronouns Matter?

The Thee, Thou, Thine ... Question

This post concerns second person pronouns (singular: thou, thee, thine, thyself; and plural: ye, you, your, yourself).¹ Undoubtedly, some do not know (or even care) about the history of our English second person singular and plural pronouns. It's all water under the bridge — a seeming archaic, cumbersome, singular form that feels formal and awkward, though, in early practice, it was never formal, respectful, honorific, or awe-filled? It was informal, intimate.

Some ironic reasons for the singular abandonment are listed below,² but what if we have lost something vital by abandoning the intimate singular form (thou, thee, thine) when adopting the now ambiguous (singular / plural) you? Do we think that converting thou and thee to you is innocuous? Could there be something we are missing like the “innocuous” Ether 2:20 deletions that Hugh Nibley lamented?³

I believe God accepts all sincere appeals no matter the pronoun usage, but something I have observed is the ubiquitous intermixing of second person singulars and plurals in every book of scripture, often when God is speaking.⁴ (Aside: How wonderfully revealing of God's nature that He would intermix His many singulars with a child's plural you's when quoting that child.⁵) But for all the other intermixings: are they just the stumblings of careless prophets or scribes or translators, mis-recording God's speech? Or should we be more aware of possible purpose and targeted application?

I feel a sense of great loss that it is almost impossible now to acquire newer religious anthologies or expositions that quote scripture or address appeals to God that use the intimate singular. I wonder if we, in the English Christian world, have lost some measure of intimacy with God in abandoning our intimate forms while many other languages have retained theirs? But as I observed in a 2010 post⁶ on the language of prayer:

English, however, is the mother tongue of many and if some ... cannot find intimacy in the narrowed usage of thee and thou, perhaps alternate usage is a matter left to them and God.

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1. The Other Traditional Pronouns:
first person pronouns are: singular - I, me, mine, myself | plural: we, ours, ourselves; and
third person pronouns:. singular (gendered) - he, him, his she, her, hers | plural: them, theirs.
2. ● “For Thou and Thee was a sore cut to proud flesh, and them that sought self-honour, who, though they would say it to God and Christ, would not endure to have it said to themselves. So that we were often beaten and abused, and sometimes in danger of our lives, for using those words to some proud men, who would say, “What! You ill-bred clown, do you Thou me?”” —George Fox, A Journal, or Historical Account...., 1836 | https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/why-did-we-stop-using-thou
● “So it seems that English lost its informal [intimate] pronouns because people were afraid of offending those who thought of themselves as upper class and because some people were actively using the pronouns thou and thee as insults.”
“Plays and legal documents from the time do show that people were using thee and thou as insults too. The attorney-general at Sir Walter Raleigh’s trial taunted Raleigh by saying “All that he did was at thy instigation, thou viper; for I thou thee, thou traitor.” And a 1913 article in Harper’s Magazine recounts a story from George Fox, the founder of the Quakers, on the trouble he encountered when using thou.
“We were often beset and abused, and sometimes in danger of our lives for using these words to some proud men, who would say, ‘What! You ill-bred clown, do you thou me?’” It’s hard to understand now, but at the time, it was almost unthinkable to call a superior thou.”
https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/why-did-people-stop-saying-thou
3. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2014/01/tampering-small-deja-vu-case-study.html
4. Just a few examples out of hundreds possible (all bold emphasis added):
Observe whom the pronoun addresses: plural or singular. Would the plural include a group beyond the addressed individual? How did hearers respond to the intermixing?
Old Testament | Genesis 17:10 ~ This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Old Testament | Exodus 29:42 ~ This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.
Old Testament | Exodus 30:36 ~ And thou shalt beat some of it very small, and put of it before the testimony in the tabernacle of the congregation, where I will meet with thee: it shall be unto you most holy.
Old Testament | Leviticus 21:8 ~ Thou shalt sanctify him therefore; for he offereth the bread of thy God: he shall be holy unto thee: for I the LORD, which sanctify you, am holy.
Old Testament | Leviticus 25:6 ~ And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee,
Old Testament | Numbers 10:29 ~ ¶ And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.
Old Testament | Numbers 18:4-7 ~ And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you. 5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel. 6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. 7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Old Testament | Jeremiah 15:14 ~ And I will make thee to pass with thine enemies into a land which thou knowest not: for a fire is kindled in mine anger, which shall burn upon you.
Old Testament | Ezekiel 5:17 ~ So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.
New Testament | Matthew 6:2-5 ~ Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5 ¶ And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
New Testament | Matthew 11:24 ~ But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
New Testament | Matthew 26:64 ~ Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
New Testament | John 14:10 ~ Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 7:1 ~ YEA, for thus saith the Lord: Have I put thee away, or have I cast thee off forever? For thus saith the Lord: Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement? To whom have I put thee away, or to which of my creditors have I sold you? Yea, to whom have I sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:3 ~ And he said unto me: Awake, and hear the words which I shall tell thee; for behold, I am come to declare unto you the glad tidings of great joy.
Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:26 ~ Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine. And while ye are in prison can ye pay even one senine? Verily, verily, I say unto you, Nay.
Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:39 ~ But I say unto you, that ye shall not resist evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also;
Book of Mormon | Ether 2:15 ~ And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands.
Doctrine and Covenants | Section 15:3 ~ And I will tell you that which no man knoweth save me and thee alone—
Doctrine and Covenants | Section 98:39 ~ And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine enemy has come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemy—
Pearl of Great Price | Moses 2:1 ~ AND it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest.
Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:32 ~ (And these are the words which I spake unto my servant Moses, and they are true even as I will; and I have spoken them unto you. See thou show them unto no man, until I command you, except to them that believe. Amen.)
5. Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:6 ~ If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can't you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;
6. https://dejavu-timestwo.blogspot.com/2010/12/language-of-prayer.html